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Oklahoma State Football

Editorial: It Was Great, but Holder Could Have Been Even Greater

March 4, 2021
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STILLWATER — Keep repeating this sentence, Mike Holder has made Oklahoma State and Oklahoma State athletics so much better. The former national championship dominating golf coach, with eight national titles to his credit, turned into athletic director and his vision made a dynamic difference.

Related: Mike Holder to retire in June, Chad Weiberg to take over as Athletic Director

Holder is outstanding at cultivating billionaires and showing them consideration and at the same time a cause their monetary contribution can make a decided difference with. Look around and you can see it. There’s Boone Pickens Stadium, Greenwood Tennis Center, Neil Patterson Stadium, the Track and Field Complex, and now O’Brate Stadium for baseball. For Holder it all started with his pet project in Karsten Creek. 

Holder dreamed of building a world class golf course on state highway 51 just outside of Stillwater. This is where you can start playing the theme from the X-Files or the Twilight Zone. Nobody believed that possible.

"It is hard to describe the magnitude of the impact Mike Holder has had on Oklahoma State Athletics during his 16-year tenure," said Rick Davis, Chair of the OSU/A&M Regents. "He has elevated our athletic program to a level once unimaginable in national prominence and prestige by developing and building athletic facilities on par with any in the nation. The athletic village envisioned by Mike and his dear friend and our beloved alum, Boone Pickens, faced a lot of doubters in the beginning who questioned if it was even possible or practical. 

While Holder was a giant in fund raising and building projects, he sometimes lacked in sticking to strategy. He understood the value of the dollar and bricks and mortar, but not always the value of flesh and blood.

A longtime coach in an athletic department that had to work hard for all they had and seemingly always had to do more with less. His initial ideal coming in as the athletic director was make football the priority. Competing with the Florida’s, Texas, Ohio States of the world he knew football was capable of financially bringing up the entire operation.

Holder did that, but at some point, his relationship with his stated favorite as Cowboys football coach Mike Gundy slipped off track and the off and on relationship never fully recovered. You look at the best athletic directors in the nation and they walk in their office each day and think what can I do today to make football stronger? That is because that will make the entire department stronger.

Holder will forever be remembered for weakening Gundy and football with his famous football recruiting quote on Oklahoma State “not getting enough four- and five-star prospects.” I spoke to other athletic directors around the conference that simply couldn’t believe his comments.

“Even if I thought that, I would never have said that,” one Big 12 athletic director told me.

Holder was up and down in his coaching hires and relationships, but recently mostly up. Hires like Josh Holliday, Kenny Gajewski, Chris Young, and Mike Boynton have been strong. The unique hiring of Boynton has helped Holder get past the awkward mishandling of the Brad Underwood negotiations that saw Underwood surprisingly bolt for Illinois.

I can tell you the attitude and spirit inside the athletic department was not always uplifting. Fair or unfair, Holder was hard on his staff. His attitude in the COVID-19 pandemic was massive cost cutting and salary reductions, higher than any other Big 12 school. 

It is now important for Chad Weiberg to put his stamp on Oklahoma State athletics and I believe he will. I see a leader that will listen more but be firm in his decisions. I think the attitude and the team spirit will be stronger. 

However, every time you walk into Boone Pickens Stadium, Greenwood Tennis Center, and O’Brate Stadium you have to repeat that first sentence again and be grateful. Mike Holder has made Oklahoma State and Oklahoma State athletics much better.

Discussion from...

Editorial: It Was Great, but Holder Could Have Been Even Greater

15,215 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by WorldseriesofPoke
tulsasig
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Ready or not, Mike Holder always speaks the truth as he sees it. To say that he has been OSU's best athletic director is to understate his value. No one else even comes near to him. His tenure has been truly transformational, and his legacy will endure forever. However, no one bats 1.000 and there are always bumps on the road to excellence in the ultra-competitive Big 12. Mike Holder dreamed big, inspired many players, coaches, students and alums, and we should all be grateful for his loyal service. Mike Gundy, especially, has every reason to be grateful to a brand new A.D. who took a chance on an unproven young assistant to become our head coach in 2015. Whatever friction existed in their relationship had as much to do with Gundy as Holder. Same goes for Brad Underwood. Now that he is retiring as AD, you can expect big things to happen at Karsten Creek. Thanks, Coach Holder, and congratulations on an outstanding career!
CaliforniaCowboy
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"Now that he is retiring as AD, you can expect big things to happen at Karsten Creek. "

what is that supposed to mean?
Lee Cothran
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I don't understand why there's any need to take a shot at Holder on the day that he announces his retirement. The good far outweighs the bad. He's a great Cowboy, and deserves a bit more respect than this.
Danny Deck
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If his biggest error was accidentally telling the truth, that's a pretty good record to look back on.
OctaviusRex
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maybe he shouldn't have said it publicly.

but he was dead on about Gundy's recruiting. you can't win conference titles if you don't have the horses.

to his credit, Gundy has been stepping his recruiting game up for the 2021 and 2022 cycles.
CaliforniaCowboy
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OctaviusRex said:

maybe he shouldn't have said it publicly.

but he was dead on about Gundy's recruiting. you can't win conference titles if you don't have the horses.

to his credit, Gundy has been stepping his recruiting game up for the 2021 and 2022 cycles.
it was a stupid comment then, and it's still a stupid comment.

TUSKAPOKE
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The Good: Relationship with Uncle Boone ($$$$$) and success with the facilities arms race....The response to "The Dirty Game".....

The Bad: 10 year contract with Ford..... the strained relationships between Gundy and Pickens/Holder....did not get a premier wrestling facility and track facilities completed....

The Ugly: Bad Underwear....not a fan personally but he can coach.....the best part of this situation is we got Coach Mike.....

"The Good" outweighs the bad and ugly. Weiberg has work to do. GO POKES!!!
CaliforniaCowboy
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TUSKAPOKE said:

The Good: Relationship with Uncle Boone ($$$$$) and success with the facilities arms race....The response to "The Dirty Game".....

The Bad: 10 year contract with Ford..... the strained relationships between Gundy and Pickens/Holder....did not get a premier wrestling facility and track facilities completed....

The Ugly: Bad Underwear....not a fan personally but he can coach.....the best part of this situation is we got Coach Mike.....

"The Good" outweighs the bad and ugly. Weiberg has work to do. GO POKES!!!
I'm not sure what you'd want for rasslin.... they're in GIA and got new mats....

Track & Field Complex

Oklahoma State University recently completed the construction of a new track and field facility. The new track and field, located on the northeast corner of the OSU Athletic Village, includes berm seating and a state-of-the-art locker room facility. The facility replaces the Kaye Barrett Droke Track & Field Center that had been in use since 1972.


Ford's contract was fine... better with him than we've done without him (IMO - when you consider our so-so record and the buy-out..... we would have done just as well with Ford ) The fans were goofy and forced a silly play... go figure.

OctaviusRex
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Stupid or not, it was correct.

I don't expect OSU to pull in top 15 classes, but the 2021 class or slightly better should be the norm

And don't tell me it's not possible in Stillwater because it's just been done, and it's been before
CaliforniaCowboy
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it's simply not relevant.


and which seasons were a top 15 class, and what did we get for that? Playoff bid? Conf Champ?

please explain
OctaviusRex
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....how is recruiting not relevant? It's the lifeblood of the program

I just said I DONT expect top 15 classes. I expect 2021 type classes and finishing 3-4 in the big 12. Which Gundy has not done as often as OSU is capable of
CaliforniaCowboy
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OctaviusRex said:

....how is recruiting not relevant? It's the lifeblood of the program
"silly rankings" are not relevant. We need good players, not good rankings. We've had plenty of highly-rated busts.

WorldseriesofPoke
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CaliforniaCowboy said:

OctaviusRex said:

....how is recruiting not relevant? It's the lifeblood of the program
"silly rankings" are not relevant. We need good players, not good rankings. We've had plenty of highly-rated busts.


But there is a correlation between high rankings and team championships and if you knew anything about football or statistics you would realize that.
WorldseriesofPoke
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We won lots of games, made an elite bowl or two and a number of our players went pro and/or graduated. I would call that a successful program. Your audacity is deafening ----I bet you voted for Joe Biden.
OctaviusRex
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Hmmmm I wonder why we haven't made it to arlington then....

Could it be because we don't recruit well enough to have enough depth to do it?
CaliforniaCowboy
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WorldseriesofPoke said:

CaliforniaCowboy said:

OctaviusRex said:

....how is recruiting not relevant? It's the lifeblood of the program
"silly rankings" are not relevant. We need good players, not good rankings. We've had plenty of highly-rated busts.


But there is a correlation between high rankings and team championships and if you knew anything about football or statistics you would realize that.
yeah..... that's the answer personal attacks. please don't participate if you are going to start name calling.
CaliforniaCowboy
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WorldseriesofPoke said:

We won lots of games, made an elite bowl or two and a number of our players went pro and/or graduated. I would call that a successful program. Your audacity is deafening ----I bet you voted for Joe Biden.
I'm not sure what that means, or why you're attacking me..... for the record, I voted for Trump.

CaliforniaCowboy
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OctaviusRex said:

Hmmmm I wonder why we haven't made it to arlington then....

Could it be because we don't recruit well enough to have enough depth to do it?
there have been 4 games..... all four had the goons, and ISU, BU, UT and TCU also played in those games. Of those 4 teams, which ones consistently bring in top 25 recruiting classes?

(rest assured I already looked it up, and it does not support "making it to Arlington")

OctaviusRex
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BU, Texas and TCU had all been consistently out recruiting us. The recruiting rankings order had very often been some combination of OU/TX 1/2 then BU/TCU 3/4. With OSU finishing 5th or below.
TUSKAPOKE
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CaliforniaCowboy said:

TUSKAPOKE said:

The Good: Relationship with Uncle Boone ($$$$$) and success with the facilities arms race....The response to "The Dirty Game".....

The Bad: 10 year contract with Ford..... the strained relationships between Gundy and Pickens/Holder....did not get a premier wrestling facility and track facilities completed....

The Ugly: Bad Underwear....not a fan personally but he can coach.....the best part of this situation is we got Coach Mike.....

"The Good" outweighs the bad and ugly. Weiberg has work to do. GO POKES!!!
I'm not sure what you'd want for rasslin.... they're in GIA and got new mats....

Track & Field Complex

Oklahoma State University recently completed the construction of a new track and field facility. The new track and field, located on the northeast corner of the OSU Athletic Village, includes berm seating and a state-of-the-art locker room facility. The facility replaces the Kaye Barrett Droke Track & Field Center that had been in use since 1972.


Ford's contract was fine... better with him than we've done without him (IMO - when you consider our so-so record and the buy-out..... we would have done just as well with Ford ) The fans were goofy and forced a silly play... go figure.


A new "Premier Wrestling Facility" is planned and is an overdue upgrade to the current room and facility where the training occurs. The Penn States and Iowas are way ahead. That is what is needed and wanted by Coach Smith and the fans that support that sport.

The track facility is just a partial training facility and limited on hosting any events. Have you been too it? Softball is also in need of upgrades especially for seating.

Ford's contract was a disaster and it resulted in one March Madness win and was too much for two few appearances. Boynton has four years in and we will see and he is the lowest paid BB coach in the Big12. IMO ......GO POKES
WorldseriesofPoke
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California Cowboy--Why do you always play the victim card...on every OSU site...Get better.
CaliforniaCowboy
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WorldseriesofPoke said:

California Cowboy--Why do you always play the victim card...on every OSU site...Get better.
I do not "play anything"... why is it that my posting bothers you and you feel this overwhelming need to call me out? It's not playing... you DID just attack me, and call me out.

A person that is constantly berated and beaten down for having an opinion, IS actually a victim, no pretense.

Thanks for playing.

I would love to hear what you have to say about the thread topic though.
WorldseriesofPoke
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CaliforniaCowboy said:

WorldseriesofPoke said:

California Cowboy--Why do you always play the victim card...on every OSU site...Get better.
I do not "play anything"... why is it that my posting bothers you and you feel this overwhelming need to call me out? It's not playing... you DID just attack me, and call me out.

A person that is constantly berated and beaten down for having an opinion, IS actually a victim, no pretense.

Thanks for playing.

I would love to hear what you have to say about the thread topic though.
WHine whine whine.
CaliforniaCowboy
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WorldseriesofPoke said:

CaliforniaCowboy said:

WorldseriesofPoke said:

California Cowboy--Why do you always play the victim card...on every OSU site...Get better.
I do not "play anything"... why is it that my posting bothers you and you feel this overwhelming need to call me out? It's not playing... you DID just attack me, and call me out.

A person that is constantly berated and beaten down for having an opinion, IS actually a victim, no pretense.

Thanks for playing.

I would love to hear what you have to say about the thread topic though.
WHine whine whine.
Bashing others is not allowed on this site... please stop. Thank you.
pms166
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thank YOU!
WorldseriesofPoke
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Sorry
Lee Cothran
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CaliforniaCowboy said:


I'm not sure what you'd want for rasslin.... they're in GIA and got new mats....


The wrestling facilities, promotions, and overall standing is woefully inadequate for the school's premier sport.
CaliforniaCowboy
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Lee Cothran said:

CaliforniaCowboy said:


I'm not sure what you'd want for rasslin.... they're in GIA and got new mats....


The wrestling facilities, promotions, and overall standing is woefully inadequate for the school's premier sport.

I don't know enough to agree or disagree, I simply asked what more one would want? We have a great and historic facility, great coaches offices, locker room, weight room, medical support. They were moved out of the basement a few years ago... we just got wonderful "promotions mats", etc.

I honestly don't know what else could be needed. I did a search and found this...

from 2018
A LOOK AT THE TOP 5 WRESTLING PROGRAMS FACILITIES
https://www.sportsgraphicsinc.com/blog/entryid/24/a-look-at-the-top-5-wrestling-programs-facilities

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Missouri supposedly has a "nice facility".... converted the old basketball practice area

Missouri Wrestling Olympic Facility
Located on the fourth floor of the Hearnes Center, the original wrestling facility was first used in 1972 by then head coach Hap Whitney and his roster of Mizzou wrestlers.

With one-and-a-half competition circles, the facility held one of the largest mat areas in the nation. Three head coaches and 32 years later, the Missouri wrestling team moved into its current home, a state-of-the-art facility, also located on the fourth floor of the Hearnes Center.

With the renovated facilities debut in the fall of 2004, the once Mizzou basketball practice gymnasium now is the home of three full-size competition circles (60x104 ft. of mat area), 46 stadium seats and a cardiovascular workout area. Current Tigers wrestling head coach Brian Smith and his team are once again at home in the largest facility in the NCAA.

Missouri's old wrestling room which is now a weight room inside Hearnes, combined with a players lounge, three coaches' offices and a video room have given the Tigers a workout area unlike any other in the country.

After several years of hosting duals in the Hearnes Fieldhouse, the Tigers wrestling squad now hosts all events, excluding the Missouri Open, on the main competition floor of the Hearnes Center. Over the past 30 plus years, attendance to Missouri's wrestling events has continued to grow, with the largest crowd (2,128) recorded on Jan. 22, 2006 in Missouri's televised dual against No. 1 Oklahoma State.

The Missouri Open, an annual event drawing teams from across the Midwest, continues to run in the Hearnes Fieldhouse. Attracting nearly 600 wrestlers from 20 teams, the all-day event pits several of the nation's best wrestlers against one another.

Since 1973 the University of Missouri has hosted three Big Eight Championships (1973, 1977 and 1991) and four Big 12 Championships (1997, 2003, 2007, and 2012). After the program's move to the Mid-American Conference, the Tigers hosted the MAC Wrestling Championship in 2015.
https://www.tigerstylewrestlingclub.com/

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Then there is this.....

Best Wrestling Colleges 2018-19
https://www.helptostudy.com/best-wrestling-colleges/

#1 Cornell University
The Cornell Big Red wrestling team represents Cornell University of Ithaca, New York. The team has an active winning streak of 83 consecutive Ivy League dual meets. Cornell has won the Eastern Intercollegiate Wrestling Association championship 25 times including 11 consecutive titles between 2007 and 2017. These streaks remain the longest in wrestling history for their respective divisions.
Ranking: 1st
Contact Information: (607) 255-2000
Apply Now: https://cornellbigred.com/index.aspx?path=wrest

#2 Oklahoma State University
The Oklahoma State Cowboys wrestling team is an NCAA Division I wrestling program and is one of four Big 12 Conference schools that participates in wrestling. The OSU Department of Intercollegiate Athletics provides student-athletes with excellent opportunities to compete and win at the highest levels of college sports and to prepare student-athletes for lifelong contributions to society.
The Oklahoma State Athletic Marketing Internship is designed to help students gain valuable insights into the world of Athletics Marketing. The Oklahoma State Athletics offers a variety of positions for OSU students to work with the Athletic Department. The department seeks enthusiastic, sports minded students each semester to volunteer their time and assist in game day operations of our varsity sports.
Ranking: 2nd
Contact Information: (405) 744-7714
Apply Now: https://okstate.com/index.aspx?path=wrestling

CaliforniaCowboy
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I also found this article about the need for new OSU wrestling facilities... but it doesn't really specify what is needed or why it is needed.

They use the old football team locker room - okay, that could probably use a few million in modernization.

What else?

https://www.stwnewspress.com/sports/osu_sports/orange-prattle-past-time-for-osu-to-commit-to-cowboy/article_0ef3637e-7090-5471-ba2b-9a79ff1d2dcd.html

Danny Deck
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Holder's plan was for a stand alone practice facility connected to GIA.

"I look at what we've always used for wrestling rooms, they've always been too small, the ceilings have been too short, and there have been columns in the way. So I want to build something that's a clear span, a room with 8 or 10 mats, and you could train not only our team, but a club team, or Olympic team, or World team, and try to draw athletes from all over the world to come to Stillwater to train for wrestling competitions. Whether it be collegiate or international. Maybe you'll add women's wrestling someday? That's growing."

https://pistolsfiringblog.com/mike-holder-qa-plans-for-wrestling-facility-big-dreams-about-the-future/

Our current setup is 3 mats, other big schools have a least one more and Ohio State for instance has 5.

Prior to the pandemic, Iowa had plans for a 17-20 million stand alone practice facility.

"It would offer 37,000 square feet of operating space on two levels and would include men's and women's locker rooms, a wrestling space about twice the size of the current room, a strength-and-conditioning center, therapy rooms for recovery, offices for the coaching staff and a "Hall of Champions" space that honors a rich Hawkeye wrestling history that includes 23 NCAA championships and 84 individual national titles."

https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sports/college/columnists/chad-leistikow/2020/01/28/iowa-wrestling-nears-approval-board-of-regents-standalone-facility/4590136002/

Since 20 million is the number Holder threw out there, I'd think something similar is what he had in mind.
CaliforniaCowboy
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Thanks for the info....

personally, I don't think we would ever use something to that scale (club teams and olympic training)...

I'll be surprised if wrestling lasts another 10 years, before it completely disappears, or is reduced to only a handful of teams.

Our league has a bunch of hodge-podge teams just to make up a conference, and Fresno recently dropped out.

I'm a wrestling fan, so don't take my comments wrong.

I guess we'll see what happens, what we've already built isn't really paid for, so I'd be curious where/who the funds would come from.

We still have not fully endowed our athletic scholarships, which was another of Holder's goals for the program.

I guess, we'll see how revenues go this year as the democrat lock down of the society comes to an end, and people begin to mingle and buy tickets again.

Danny Deck
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We will not be competitive if we don't make better use of club teams and Olympic training. It wasn't a crazy long time ago, 2004, when we had 3 Olympic team members training in Stillwater, but the landscape has shifted and we need to adjust with it.

It's hard to say what the future of wrestling holds, and the budget crunches athletic departments are going to be faced with won't help. The news lately has been something of a mixed bag with larger schools like Stanford dropping, but smaller schools like Little Rock adding and Cal Baptist reclassifying as D1.

Mizzou is coming back to the Big 12 for wrestling which is great news for the conference as a whole and OSU in particular as it will up the competition level.

Women's wrestling gaining momentum is the best thing that can happen for the longevity of the men's teams.
CaliforniaCowboy
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Danny Deck said:


Mizzou is coming back to the Big 12 for wrestling which is great news for the conference as a whole and OSU in particular as it will up the competition level.


That's great... I had not heard that about Mizzou


They have women's wrestling in LA, but it's held in a night club and involves a vat of mud. (yuck, yuck, yuck... as Cali hopes the joke doesn't get him branded a sexist)
Lee Cothran
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Cali, I'm sorry, but I'd ask you to kindly never talk about or mention wrestling again. You have no idea what you're talking about. The sport is growing significantly across the country. Participation rates are way up. Popularity numbers are way up. It's the 5th most watched NCAA championship event on ESPN.

You're mudslinging the premier sport at the school to prove some kind of weird point. Please don't. Sit a few plays out.
CaliforniaCowboy
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Thanks for you concern about me Lee, but you didn't support any of your statements.

Wrestling may be up, but Div 1 wrestling has severely declined. HS wrestling is up, but mostly they are being drawn to Div II and Div III programs - where wrestling is actually making a bit of a resurgence, because those schools have learned that they can increase enrollment through wrestling.

This info here is from 2016 - if you have something more current I'd be interested in seeing it.

"... 101 men's wrestling programs have been dropped since 1988-89, including 41 at the Division I level. While the total number of student athletes across all NCAA sports has increased exponentially since 1988-89, the number of wrestlers has declined 26% from 3,428 to 2,520 in Division I.


Wrestling has experienced the largest loss of any men's sport across all three divisions, with tennis coming in second at a loss of 65 programs."
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