Story Poster
Photo by Marshall Levenson
Oklahoma State Football

The History Of OSU Assistant Coaches Under Gundy And The Consistency He Has Instilled

January 5, 2021
13,622

With the news of Oklahoma State defensive coordinator Jim Knowles interviewing with Illinois for their vacant defensive coordinator position under new head coach Bret Bielema, it appears that there is some misunderstanding among Cowboys fans. 

When I tweeted out the news that Knowles was in fact interviewing with Bielema, there were many comments that seemed to think that he was doing so due to “not liking Gundy” or “wanting to leave”. While I do have my own theories on why Knowles took the interview, I do not know for a certainty what his reasons were but I personally believe those two reasons did not play into it.

I wanted to address the idea of saying coaches do not like Gundy or that “he loses coaches” but through more of a statistics lens comparing the Oklahoma State coaching staff to the rest of the country and the kind of culture and sustainability Mike Gundy and staff have built.

Let's take a look at some numbers: 

3.8 years.

That is the average tenure of FBS college football coaches, according to BusinessInsider.com. 

3.8 years means that, on average, every senior in FBS programs would have two head coaches in their time as a student athlete at that institution. In most cases, this also means they would have new position coaches, analysts and strength coaches throughout their career. 

There have been several tweets attached to mine from fans who, for some reason, are speaking as if coaching changes have been a major issue in the Oklahoma State program under Mike Gundy, when the numbers in no way support this.

Have there been coaching changes? Sure, but far less than most programs and the reasons for leaving are primarily for one reason. Career progression. Leaving a positional job for a coordinator position or a coordinator leaving for a head coaching position or a program that can pay more at the same position.

 

Offensive Coordinators

2020: Kasey Dunn

2019: Sean Gleeson - Move to OC at Rutgers (Pay raise)

2013-2018: Mike Yurcich - Move to OC at Ohio State (Pay raise)

2011-2012: Todd Monken - Move to Head Coach

2010: Dana Holgerson - Move to Head Coach

2008-2010: Gunter Brewer - Move to Assoc. HC

2005-2007: Larry Fedora - Move to Head Coach


Defensive Coordinators

2018-2020: Jim Knowles

2013-2017: Glenn Spencer (previously on staff for 5 years) Was not retained on staff

2009-2012: Bill Young - Fired

2007-2008: Tim Beckman - Move to Head Coach

2005-2006: Vance Bedford - Fired

 

Every year, there is always a major story or two about how assistants leave on their own due to poor relationships with a head coach or athletic director. Under the tenure of Mike Gundy, this has not been an issue as a major coach has never left on his own for personal grudges or personal reasons. 

While 3.8 years is the national average, here is a look at the Oklahoma State coaching staff and how long they have been on staff. You will notice that 9 out of the 11 major assistants are above the national average, some more than doubling it. 

None of these coaches are showing attrition in coaching their positions or recruiting them. In fact, there has been consistent growth among both categories up and down the staff.

 

Kasey Dunn Associate Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator/Receivers Going into 11th season
Jim Knowles Defensive Coordinator / Linebackers Going into 4th season
Tim Duffie Cornerbacks Going into 9th season
Joe Bob Clements Defensive Line Going into 9th season
Dam Hammerschmidt Safeties Going into 8th season
Jason McEndoo Cowboy Backs Going into 7th season
John Wozniak Running Backs Going into 5th season
Charlie Dickey Offensive Line Going into 3rd season
Greg Richmond Defensive Line Going into 4th season
Tim Rattay Quarterbacks Going into 2nd season
Rob Glass Strength and Conditioning Going into 27th season overall (2nd tenure)

 

So, while looking at the current situation with Jim Knowles and then looking at history, it does not seem that Knowles leaving would do more good for him than bad. He currently makes $600,000 which is a bargain when you look at how much he has done in his three seasons and what the future looks to be. 

Would Illinois pay Knowles more than $600,000? And would Knowles be satisfied with the defensive talent at Illinois? I am not sure. Bret Bielema is now making $4.2 million per year, $200,000 more than Lovie Smith was and he his own defensive coordinator. I am not sure if Knowles would receive a very big pay raise, if one at all. It is also extremely rare that a coach of Knowles’ prominence leaves for a lateral position without receiving a decent pay raise. 

Whatever outcome takes place, I am sure it will be soon as it normally not long after interviews take place that a decision is made. Pokes Report will be monitoring developments of Knowles and the Illinois coaching search. 

Discussion from...

The History Of OSU Assistant Coaches Under Gundy And The Consistency He Has Instilled

7,321 Views | 15 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by OctaviusRex
tulsasig
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:02a, 1/6/21
I'm pretty sure asking him to take a 40% pay cut when his head coach took only a 20% cut had something to do with it.
Reply Quote
CaliforniaCowboy
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to tulsasig • 8:04a, 1/6/21
I was thinking an easier league to pad your stats as a D coordinator, since they don't play offense in that league.

I hope he stays.
Reply Quote
1
NJAggie
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to tulsasig • 8:48a, 1/6/21
tulsasig said:
I'm pretty sure asking him to take a 40% pay cut when his head coach took only a 20% cut had something to do with it.
Yep, I'd have to say that is the big thing. You have to realize that the assistant coaches only avoided that because they were under contract already. So now with new contracts coming they have to be wondering if they won't see that for 2021-2. Another contract mess coming out of Holder's office.
Reply Quote
OctaviusRex
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to NJAggie • 11:47a, 1/6/21
yep this was my thought. less about Gundy and more about OSU not paying coordinators the big bucks. whether or not they can afford it, I don't know, but I have heard Gundy has taken issue with Holder's "frugality" towards football.

Why is Rutgers willing/able to pay an OC more than OSU?
Reply Quote
2 edits
Marshall Levenson
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to OctaviusRex • 12:07p, 1/6/21
Staff
Great question.. in no way should Rutgers be able to out pay Oklahoma State. I will say though, I personally had no problem with Gleeson leaving. I think Kasey Dunn will be a better option in the long run.

And yes many people have had issues with the way Holder has handled paying coaching (or lack thereof)
Reply Quote
Bovine Lad
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Marshall Levenson • 12:14p, 1/6/21
Marshall Levenson said:
Great question.. in no way should Rutgers be able to out pay Oklahoma State. I will say though, I personally had no problem with Gleeson leaving. I think Kasey Dunn will be a better option in the long run.

And yes many people have had issues with the way Holder has handled paying coaching (or lack thereof)
If the censorship of the apologist that champion the cause of the Staff (regardless) results in yet another 9 years without a Championship, will those activist/advocates apologize to the Cowboy Nation for their complicity?
Reply Quote
OctaviusRex
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Marshall Levenson • 12:15p, 1/6/21
Marshall Levenson said:
Great question.. in no way should Rutgers be able to out pay Oklahoma State. I will say though, I personally had no problem with Gleeson leaving. I think Kasey Dunn will be a better option in the long run.

And yes many people have had issues with the way Holder has handled paying coaching (or lack thereof)
I appreciate the response Marshall.

I do agree that is has worked out and I wasn't devastated about Sean Gleeson leaving; however, Rutgers upping the ante over OSU's payday is the concerning part to me. Their athletic budget is smaller than OSU's and the thought of calling Rutgers a football school is laughable.

Is there any truth to the hypothesis that Holder is more willing to funnel more money to the non-revenue sports than many other schools?

I can't complain since I'm not donating millions of dollars and I know those sports are some peoples' livelihood, but personally.....I wouldn't notice a difference if OSU soccer, track/field, tennis, etc. were just discontinued. I'd rather have 1 FB or BB NC than 20 in any of those sports.
Reply Quote
Bovine Lad
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to OctaviusRex • 12:21p, 1/6/21
OctaviusRex said:
Marshall Levenson said:
Great question.. in no way should Rutgers be able to out pay Oklahoma State. I will say though, I personally had no problem with Gleeson leaving. I think Kasey Dunn will be a better option in the long run.

And yes many people have had issues with the way Holder has handled paying coaching (or lack thereof)
I appreciate the response Marshall.

I do agree that is has worked out and I wasn't devastated about Sean Gleeson leaving; however, Rutgers upping the ante over OSU's payday is the concerning part to me. Their athletic budget is smaller than OSU's and the thought of calling Rutgers a football school is laughable.

Is there any truth to the hypothesis that Holder is more willing to funnel more money to the non-revenue sports than many other schools?

I can't complain since I'm not donating millions of dollars and I know those sports are some peoples' livelihood, but personally.....I wouldn't notice a difference if OSU soccer, track/field, tennis, etc. were just discontinued. I'd rather have 1 FB or BB NC than 20 in any of those sports.
How much of an increase in coaches pay would result in a Big 12 Championship?

An increase of $500k each? An addition of a million a piece?

If we gave each of the 33 members of the Staff an additional $1mil a piece would that assure us a spot in the next Playoff? What would it buy?
Reply Quote
1 edit
OctaviusRex
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Bovine Lad • 12:25p, 1/6/21
Bovine Lad said:
OctaviusRex said:
Marshall Levenson said:
Great question.. in no way should Rutgers be able to out pay Oklahoma State. I will say though, I personally had no problem with Gleeson leaving. I think Kasey Dunn will be a better option in the long run.

And yes many people have had issues with the way Holder has handled paying coaching (or lack thereof)
I appreciate the response Marshall.

I do agree that is has worked out and I wasn't devastated about Sean Gleeson leaving; however, Rutgers upping the ante over OSU's payday is the concerning part to me. Their athletic budget is smaller than OSU's and the thought of calling Rutgers a football school is laughable.

Is there any truth to the hypothesis that Holder is more willing to funnel more money to the non-revenue sports than many other schools?

I can't complain since I'm not donating millions of dollars and I know those sports are some peoples' livelihood, but personally.....I wouldn't notice a difference if OSU soccer, track/field, tennis, etc. were just discontinued. I'd rather have 1 FB or BB NC than 20 in any of those sports.
How much of an increase in coaches pay would result in a Big 12 Championship?

An increase of $500k each? An addition of a million a piece?

If we gave each of the 33 members of the Staff an additional $1mil a piece would that assure us a spot in the next Playoff? What would it buy?
It would buy us the ability to hire elite coordinators and position coaches from wherever we want? There's no guarantee any team makes the playoffs, but that would greatly improve our odds of winning the big 12, or at least making it to Arlington.

elite coordinators and position coaches are probably stellar recruiters as well with proven track records of putting tons of guys in the NFL
Reply Quote
Danny Deck
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to OctaviusRex • 1:49p, 1/6/21
OctaviusRex said:
Marshall Levenson said:
Great question.. in no way should Rutgers be able to out pay Oklahoma State. I will say though, I personally had no problem with Gleeson leaving. I think Kasey Dunn will be a better option in the long run.

And yes many people have had issues with the way Holder has handled paying coaching (or lack thereof)

I can't complain since I'm not donating millions of dollars and I know those sports are some peoples' livelihood, but personally.....I wouldn't notice a difference if OSU soccer, track/field, tennis, etc. were just discontinued. I'd rather have 1 FB or BB NC than 20 in any of those sports.
You'd notice when we had to drop to D2 because we don't offer enough sports.
Reply Quote
Bovine Lad
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to OctaviusRex • 2:17p, 1/6/21
OctaviusRex said:
Bovine Lad said:

How much of an increase in coaches pay would result in a Big 12 Championship?

An increase of $500k each? An addition of a million a piece?

If we gave each of the 33 members of the Staff an additional $1mil a piece would that assure us a spot in the next Playoff? What would it buy?
It would buy us the ability to hire elite coordinators and position coaches from wherever we want? There's no guarantee any team makes the playoffs, but that would greatly improve our odds of winning the big 12, or at least making it to Arlington.

elite coordinators and position coaches are probably stellar recruiters as well with proven track records of putting tons of guys in the NFL

"Elite" one's?

So those that we have now... those that you wish to play those large sums to are not "elite"... and yet you wish to pay them as if they were?

Is A&M's, Josh Henson an "elite" coordinator or position coach? To me, his numbers sure seemed like they were relatively "elite" this year.
Reply Quote
5 edits
OctaviusRex
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Danny Deck • 2:32p, 1/6/21
Danny Deck said:
OctaviusRex said:
Marshall Levenson said:
Great question.. in no way should Rutgers be able to out pay Oklahoma State. I will say though, I personally had no problem with Gleeson leaving. I think Kasey Dunn will be a better option in the long run.

And yes many people have had issues with the way Holder has handled paying coaching (or lack thereof)

I can't complain since I'm not donating millions of dollars and I know those sports are some peoples' livelihood, but personally.....I wouldn't notice a difference if OSU soccer, track/field, tennis, etc. were just discontinued. I'd rather have 1 FB or BB NC than 20 in any of those sports.
You'd notice when we had to drop to D2 because we don't offer enough sports.
Ok, what I mean to say then is....there would be a very miniscule amount of people who would care how good those sports are in comparison to FB or BB. Like I said, I'm just asking....I don't have OSU's athletic budget in front of me, or any data about the percentage spent on revenue vs. non revenue sports compared to other schools
Reply Quote
1 edit
OctaviusRex
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Bovine Lad • 2:37p, 1/6/21
Bovine Lad said:
OctaviusRex said:
Bovine Lad said:

How much of an increase in coaches pay would result in a Big 12 Championship?

An increase of $500k each? An addition of a million a piece?

If we gave each of the 33 members of the Staff an additional $1mil a piece would that assure us a spot in the next Playoff? What would it buy?
It would buy us the ability to hire elite coordinators and position coaches from wherever we want? There's no guarantee any team makes the playoffs, but that would greatly improve our odds of winning the big 12, or at least making it to Arlington.

elite coordinators and position coaches are probably stellar recruiters as well with proven track records of putting tons of guys in the NFL

"Elite" one's?

So those that we have now... those that you wish to play those large sums to are not "elite"... and yet you wish to pay them as if they were?
ok you asked if each of the 33 members of the staff were given an additional $1M apiece if that would assure us a spot in the playoff. There's 2 different discussions:

1) No - paying the current staff each that extra amount would not be any different. But I never said pay anyone on the current staff anywhere near an additional $1M, Just pay great coordinators like Jim Knowles their market value, if Illinois comes knocking offering $850,000, then offer him $900,000. Yes the Sean Gleeson thing worked out, but we should not be being outbid by freaking Rutgers anyway. Gundy has voiced his frustrations with Holder in the past about the low budget for assistant coaches. Losing Henson sucked. I still think Charlie Dickey is a great OL coach, so we'll see how that turns out. But given all the unfortunate OL luck we had this year, sure would be nice to have Henson hitting the recruiting trail for us for the 2021 class.

2) If you're saying the budget was granted an additional $1M per position to hire any 33 staff members, then yes absolutely that would put OSU in position to be a yearly contender on the national stage because then they could go get whoever they wanted. when is the last time OSU has had any kind of splash hire? Holgersen? Monken? I'd call Henson a splash hire and he was as advertised. if he had a few more years to continue recruiting, I betcha he'd be pullin in more blue chippers than Dickey.....and having blue chippers along the OL is arguably the most important position group to have dudes with NFL potential.
Reply Quote
5 edits
Bovine Lad
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to OctaviusRex • 10:48a, 1/7/21
OctaviusRex said:
Bovine Lad said:
OctaviusRex said:
Bovine Lad said:

How much of an increase in coaches pay would result in a Big 12 Championship?

An increase of $500k each? An addition of a million a piece?

If we gave each of the 33 members of the Staff an additional $1mil a piece would that assure us a spot in the next Playoff? What would it buy?
It would buy us the ability to hire elite coordinators and position coaches from wherever we want? There's no guarantee any team makes the playoffs, but that would greatly improve our odds of winning the big 12, or at least making it to Arlington.

elite coordinators and position coaches are probably stellar recruiters as well with proven track records of putting tons of guys in the NFL

"Elite" one's?

So those that we have now... those that you wish to play those large sums to are not "elite"... and yet you wish to pay them as if they were?
ok you asked if each of the 33 members of the staff were given an additional $1M apiece if that would assure us a spot in the playoff. There's 2 different discussions:

1) No - paying the current staff each that extra amount would not be any different. But I never said pay anyone on the current staff anywhere near an additional $1M, Just pay great coordinators like Jim Knowles their market value, if Illinois comes knocking offering $850,000, then offer him $900,000. Yes the Sean Gleeson thing worked out, but we should not be being outbid by freaking Rutgers anyway. Gundy has voiced his frustrations with Holder in the past about the low budget for assistant coaches. Losing Henson sucked. I still think Charlie Dickey is a great OL coach, so we'll see how that turns out. But given all the unfortunate OL luck we had this year, sure would be nice to have Henson hitting the recruiting trail for us for the 2021 class.

2) If you're saying the budget was granted an additional $1M per position to hire any 33 staff members, then yes absolutely that would put OSU in position to be a yearly contender on the national stage because then they could go get whoever they wanted. when is the last time OSU has had any kind of splash hire? Holgersen? Monken? I'd call Henson a splash hire and he was as advertised. if he had a few more years to continue recruiting, I betcha he'd be pullin in more blue chippers than Dickey.....and having blue chippers along the OL is arguably the most important position group to have dudes with NFL potential.
Henson is already "pullin in more blue chippers than Dickey"... his OL rates as the best in all of college football. Henson brought Tevin Jenkins into the Cowboy Nation in his first recruiting class after returning to OSU from Missouri. Jenkins was rated as the top OT in the nation.

How about Kasey Dunn? I was told that he was the best WR in all of college Football.

Funny how it works... sometimes they are inferior to the "elites" and other times they are the best there is. Meanwhile we struggle to finish 4th in a season that we were suppose to challenge for the crown... and our "Fans" can't get enough of it.
Reply Quote
2 edits
OctaviusRex
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Bovine Lad • 2:37p, 1/8/21
Bovine Lad said:
OctaviusRex said:
Bovine Lad said:
OctaviusRex said:
Bovine Lad said:

How much of an increase in coaches pay would result in a Big 12 Championship?

An increase of $500k each? An addition of a million a piece?

If we gave each of the 33 members of the Staff an additional $1mil a piece would that assure us a spot in the next Playoff? What would it buy?
It would buy us the ability to hire elite coordinators and position coaches from wherever we want? There's no guarantee any team makes the playoffs, but that would greatly improve our odds of winning the big 12, or at least making it to Arlington.

elite coordinators and position coaches are probably stellar recruiters as well with proven track records of putting tons of guys in the NFL

"Elite" one's?

So those that we have now... those that you wish to play those large sums to are not "elite"... and yet you wish to pay them as if they were?
ok you asked if each of the 33 members of the staff were given an additional $1M apiece if that would assure us a spot in the playoff. There's 2 different discussions:

1) No - paying the current staff each that extra amount would not be any different. But I never said pay anyone on the current staff anywhere near an additional $1M, Just pay great coordinators like Jim Knowles their market value, if Illinois comes knocking offering $850,000, then offer him $900,000. Yes the Sean Gleeson thing worked out, but we should not be being outbid by freaking Rutgers anyway. Gundy has voiced his frustrations with Holder in the past about the low budget for assistant coaches. Losing Henson sucked. I still think Charlie Dickey is a great OL coach, so we'll see how that turns out. But given all the unfortunate OL luck we had this year, sure would be nice to have Henson hitting the recruiting trail for us for the 2021 class.

2) If you're saying the budget was granted an additional $1M per position to hire any 33 staff members, then yes absolutely that would put OSU in position to be a yearly contender on the national stage because then they could go get whoever they wanted. when is the last time OSU has had any kind of splash hire? Holgersen? Monken? I'd call Henson a splash hire and he was as advertised. if he had a few more years to continue recruiting, I betcha he'd be pullin in more blue chippers than Dickey.....and having blue chippers along the OL is arguably the most important position group to have dudes with NFL potential.
Henson is already "pullin in more blue chippers than Dickey"... his OL rates as the best in all of college football. Henson brought Tevin Jenkins into the Cowboy Nation in his first recruiting class after returning to OSU from Missouri. Jenkins was rated as the top OT in the nation.

How about Kasey Dunn? I was told that he was the best WR in all of college Football.

Funny how it works... sometimes they are inferior to the "elites" and other times they are the best there is. Meanwhile we struggle to finish 4th in a season that we were suppose to challenge for the crown... and our "Fans" can't get enough of it.
I can't even tell if you're trying to argue anymore or not. I would liked to have kept Henson

what exactly is it you want OSU to do?
Reply Quote
2
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.