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Update: Big 12 Still at 12, 14, or Even Bigger? Yormark is in Motion

July 6, 2022
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STILLWATER – There will be a lot of stories the rest of this week and some could be accurate. We hope that is the case for Pokes Report and I promise we’re not going to throw out click bait and bogus material. The worst I saw was a message Tuesday night about the Big 12 Board of Directors having a meeting to discuss Oklahoma State leaving the conference (presumably for the SEC) and the pursuit of Pac-12 teams.

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Update: Big 12 Still at 12, 14, or Even Bigger? Yormark is in Motion

13,730 Views | 58 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by CaliforniaCowboy
CaliforniaCowboy
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GumbyFromPokeyLand said:



Yes the tv numbers. OSU numbers were essentially the same as aTm (with a much larger fanbase) having games with Alabama, LSU, Auburn and whomever they played from the SEC East.

As NJ stated, the numbers are what they are. Every school's numbers include games with highly viewed schools.
of course the number mean what they mean when compared to other past numbers, but not when being converted to future numbers.

It's sort of like averaging averages.... it's bad math.

unfortunately all we have as a gage is past numbers, which are only marginally relevant to total interest when those teams are removed from their context and placed into an entirely new scenario.

you can project them to the future if you want, those who make deals know what they are looking at, and it's not absolutes.
CaliforniaCowboy
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GumbyFromPokeyLand said:



So, you want to look forward. Great!

Give us a top-20 ranking of viewership for 2022, or 2023, or year of your choice.
thank you for proving my point.... it can't be done. QED
GumbyFromPokeyLand
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CaliforniaCowboy said:

GumbyFromPokeyLand said:



So, you want to look forward. Great!

Give us a top-20 ranking of viewership for 2022, or 2023, or year of your choice.
thank you for proving my point.... it can't be done. QED
So, you're looking forward with numbers that can't be determined, and refuse to look backward for numbers that are "irrelevant". And yet, you have a strong opinion about what's valuable and what's not and therefore who's in and who's out and who should go here and not there.

That is just brilliant. LOL

Clearly, you'll never learn. I'll be more contemplative in the future when trying to engage you in a thoughtful discussion.
CaliforniaCowboy
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GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

CaliforniaCowboy said:

GumbyFromPokeyLand said:



So, you want to look forward. Great!

Give us a top-20 ranking of viewership for 2022, or 2023, or year of your choice.
thank you for proving my point.... it can't be done. QED
So, you're looking forward with numbers that can't be determined, and refuse to look backward for numbers that are "irrelevant". And yet, you have a strong opinion about what's valuable and what's not and therefore who's in and who's out and who should go here and not there.

That is just brilliant. LOL

Clearly, you'll never learn. I'll be more contemplative in the future when trying to engage you in a thoughtful discussion.

I never ever said anything like that, you just made all of that up. That is not what I said, that is what you wanted me to say.

I have refused nothing, I have no opinion about what is valuable or not valuable, I only caution about using bad math.

Clearly you will never learn, that you are wrong, you are always wrong.

Always wrong.
Robert Allen
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I have read all your posts from the Update story that I did yesterday on conference realignment and feel like I can draw a picture of each of you based on what your opinions are of Oklahoma State.

There are some OSU fans that want more (Get it?). They want to be in the best conference playing the best teams. There are those fans that for some reason, maybe internal, that want to be in a reconfigured and softer Big 12 where it would be easier for victories to mount up. Some of those fans see Oklahoma State in a lesser light as a school that is not equipped to play at the top.

Oklahoma State in some eyes is a top tier school and in other views they are a school not quite ready for the top of college football and athletics.

Why is Oklahoma State in the position it is right now?

If you are talking about the position of being on the outside looking in to either the SEC of the Big Ten and watching longtime Bedlam rival Oklahoma and shorter term Big 12 punching bag but legendary program Texas ride off and leave Oklahoma State behind it is because of this.

After World War II, Henry Iba made the decision that Oklahoma State was not going to enter into the bidding war for WWII veterans that were talented football players and pay them above and beyond the GI Bill. Then Oklahoma A&M was going to major in basketball and wrestling and be a national powerhouse there. That led to Oklahoma A&M/OSU football being marginal and less, going to Arkansas every season and later playing more money games on the road to help build up other programs like a softball stadium. That long drought in football and the only venture out of it being due to major cheating of which Oklahoma State got caught resulted in a bad view of Cowboy football.

Oklahoma State football was not a blueblood, but thanks to Boone Pickens' money and Mike Gundy's program building Cowboy football is a strong "johnny come lately" showing with the record on the field, increased interest in television viewing, and a now recognized brand worthy of consideration or at the least sitting on top of the schools not inside the bountiful ropes of the SEC and Big Ten.

Oklahoma State has no invitation to the Big Ten or SEC. Their academics, while solid, don't meet the Big Ten's internal barometer of academic excellence. The Cowboys could be added to the SEC. As I have written a number of times they would be a fit and would bring value.

Having toured Fayetteville, Ark. and the University of Arkansas campus on the way home from a short vacation, I found that the U-of-A and Fayetteville and Oklahoma State and Stillwater are on a pretty good par with each other. Arkansas has a much better track and field facility, but Oklahoma State has a top flight cross country course. Oklahoma State has a much nicer soccer facility. Baseball and softball are both good with Oklahoma State's O'Brate Stadium being nicer and Arkansas' Bogle Park not any bigger, but a little nicer that Cowgirl Stadium.

The Razorbacks have more indoor facility with both refurbished Barnhill Arena and the larger and more modern Bud Walton Arena. Gallagher-Iba Arena certain measures up. It would help wrestling and perhaps, women's basketball to have a secondary and smaller arena like Barnhill.

I've been to Tennessee, Missouri, Kentucky, Mississippi State, LSU, Texas A&M, Texas, and Oklahoma. I can certainly say that Oklahoma State's facilities would fit right in.

The crown in the football stadium and while Boone Pickens Stadium would be the second smallest stadium in the SEC at 55,509 (record 60,218), it is in the same neighborhood of Kentucky, Mississippi State, Missouri, Mississippi that are all in the 60,000-64,000 range. Arkansas' Donald W. Reynolds Stadium at 76,000 is where the stadium capacities jump up in the league.

All of those same reasons listed above are why Oklahoma State is now considered at the top of the schools not currently members in the Big Ten or SEC. It is why when rumors kicked up earlier this week of Oklahoma State having an invite to the SEC that fellow Big 12 schools became nervous. Oklahoma State is a brand considered to be close to that top line to get in. Oregon joins Oklahoma State as more of a newcomer to being a college football power. The two schools are also kindred spirits in how they have used uniforns, logos, mascots and overall looks to wow fans and further create identities.

While Clemson is the leader of the new wave of schools having football success including a national championship. Oklahoma State has had more success recently than Washington and Stanford of the Pac-12; Kansas State, West Virginia, Baylor, TCU, and all others in the Big12; and Florida State, Miami (Fla.), Virginia Tech, and any other schools in the ACC.

For whatever reason, Oklahoma State is not a media darling. Many old school members of the new media have not taken a shine to Oklahoma State, but reporters like Adam Rittenberg, Andy Staples, Max Olson, and Stewart Mandel have written about Oklahoma State fairly and have gained the trust of head football coach Mike Gundy, not easy for an outsider to do.

If new Big 12 commissioner Brett Yormark were to read this story he would learn a few things. I love the post about how having a new commissioner that isn't from the college sports background that doesn't sleep a lot of hours, and is rushing into action is a recipe for disaster or at the least a less than desirable outcome. One Big 12 administrator told me Yormark has done more in a week in the area of realignment and positioning the Big 12 better than the previous commissioner did over months and even years.

History is a weakness for Yormark, but it is one he is dealing with on the fly. The truth to the situation is that Yormark needs briefings, multiple briefings from all the Big12 schools as he tries to learn about the new institutions that he is representing and fighting for.

I hear he is getting those as he is multitasking his way through the week. One Big 12 administrator told me that Yormark is moving at warp speed compared to his predecessor and where his history may be lacking, his economics, negotiating, improvising, and communicating are all over the top.

His wife and her family are the owners of Fresco by Scotto and Fresco on the Go Restaurants in New York. The Scotto name is famous and synomous with fine dining in the Big Apple. I'll give Yormark points on that alone.

I love great Italian food, but right now I think all of us are more hungry for what the future holds for Oklahoma State and for the Big 12.
Joe Khatib
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I bet you see all these contracts be of much shorter duration than they used to be because of all the potential uncertainty.
CaliforniaCowboy
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Robert, we're all hoping that the new Commish can get us into a decent deal.

You failed to include those of us who would rather not sell our souls to the SEC devil in the name of a buck.

If you're offering advice to the Commish, you should make sure he knows that the price of entry to the SEC is cheating and scandal. If he wants to lead us there, he'll need to brush up on deception and dishonesty.

OSU has just gotten ourselves out of that type of mess and many of us have no desire to return to that M.O., regardless of the potential financial reward.

If the B1G offered, or the ACC or some other honorable conference then we might be on to something, no to the SEC, just plain no.

Robert Allen
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Cal Cowboy that is a fair comment. The cheating is wild, crazy, and constant in the SEC, but they have it under control in their league. I don't favor that existence, but I also want for Oklahoma State and it's teams, coaches, and athletes to have all of the best opportunities.

I'd love a third best league that gets decent aand competitive television money and opportunity to get in the CFP. No problem with that if the new commissioner can make that happen.
CowboyKip
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Cal, there hasn't been much scandal because the NCAA has not investigated and punished the major SEC schools. With NIL the SEC has truly become wild. Unless the soon to be "Super conferences" exit the NCAA and police themselves the boosters will spend whatever they want on whoever they want in NIL-for-play schemes.
NJAggie
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Robert, wish it wasn't so, but they have so overpaid for product in both B1G and SEC that they've really put all the best options out of the market price. And they insist on increasing it. The two leagues look ready to fight over UNC & UVA two schools that can't put bodies in the seats or get people to TV's because they are perceived as major properties.

Honestly the SEC would be much better served adding OSU & WVU, and the B1G adding Oregon & Washington. The valuations are so screwed up by perception, and its amazing because the people making the calls should know the true values.

So yes I don't see us getting called up because the bias is against us. But I think we can be one of the best at the Big XII level, and be in better shape to be called up in a few years. Lets make lemonade and go win some conference titles and camp out in the top 15.

It does actually look as if the money is going to be better than we thought last summer.
# old 56
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I am more concerned with tuition and " Best education value in the country". I don't know how that is affected by sports but having a school po folks can attend and better themselves is the reason OK ST. exists. seeing what is happening in SESPN conf. makes me think THAT AIN'T US.
CaliforniaCowboy
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# old 56 dp said:

I am more concerned with tuition and " Best education value in the country". I don't know how that is affected by sports but having a school po folks can attend and better themselves is the reason OK ST. exists. seeing what is happening in SESPN conf. makes me think THAT AIN'T US.
we're down around #30 these days, the tuition at OSU keeps going up....

https://www.valuecolleges.com/rankings/best-education-programs/

30 West Virginia University
A public land-grant university in Morgantown, WV, West Virginia University has been educating teachers from its founding, and the College of Education and Human Services is West Virginia's most trusted and respected school of education. Students can earn bachelor degrees in Child Development and Family Studies, Elementary Education, Education and Human Services, Speech Pathology and Audiology, or choose a 5-year bachelor to master's program. With tuition only $266 per credit for WV residents, WVU is a serious value.

31 Oklahoma State University
A U.S. News & World Report top-100 public university and top-50 value, Oklahoma State University is a major research institution in Stillwater, OK. OSU's College of Education may get the most attention for its status as one of the only colleges in the nation to offer Aerospace Administration and Operations as a program, but it offers more conventional education degrees as well, including a Career and Technical Education program that has been ranked in the top 10 by U.S. News & World Report. Other paths include Elementary and Secondary Education, Physical Education, and Health Education, all for a low tuition rate that makes Oklahoma State a trusted value.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

here are the Forbes lists, I didn't look through them.

https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings/best-value-colleges
NJAggie
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Maybe posting about the regular SEC contact wasn't a good idea.

https://gridironheroics.com/source-oklahoma-state-engaged-in-active-conversation-with-the-sec/?fbclid=IwAR0s6Z_x85Y7kDs67lCtU8QA_fNWGzcshuWp5RMX5F753jxjxTwkk2JxMZk&fs=e&s=cl
GumbyFromPokeyLand
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NJAggie said:

Maybe posting about the regular SEC contact wasn't a good idea.

https://gridironheroics.com/source-oklahoma-state-engaged-in-active-conversation-with-the-sec/?fbclid=IwAR0s6Z_x85Y7kDs67lCtU8QA_fNWGzcshuWp5RMX5F753jxjxTwkk2JxMZk&fs=e&s=cl


Hard to see the downside.
NJAggie
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Well people are using it to say the Big XII isn't stable. I'd call that downside.
Pistolp
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CaliforniaCowboy said:

oh gawd.. not the "look at the TV numbers" argument again.... sigh.

those B12 TV numbers are with OU and UT in the league, which raises up everybody's numbers, because of the playoff. Those numbers mean only a fraction of what you are suggesting they mean, until the playoff picture gets resolved.

We won't know squat until then.

Unless you can break down those numbers and discern WHO is watching and WHY, then they aren't worth much, most likely folks watch because we usually have the best chance of knocking off OU for the playoff chase. Without the status of the existing B12, those eyes will not be tuning in to see if we can knock off Cincy, or whether Baylor wins the conference for the next 10 years.

Umm....no, not exactly. They also have shown OSU numbrers net of UT/OU, and they looked good. We averaged ovrer a million viewers without our prime two opponents. The speaks very well for OSU, and as you said that's about as forward looking as you can be right now. I agree nobody knows what kind of numbers a BYU/OSU or BYUCincy etc game would generate. What we do know about the PAC teams: ASU is ranked 49th in viewers even with USC/UCLA games. AU full schedule is ranked down in the 70's, almost exactly the same as the University of Tulsa. So going in both of those PAC schools are well below OSU and won't do much for us. Having a market isn't work much if nobody in the market watches your games.
CaliforniaCowboy
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Pistolp said:

CaliforniaCowboy said:

oh gawd.. not the "look at the TV numbers" argument again.... sigh.

those B12 TV numbers are with OU and UT in the league, which raises up everybody's numbers, because of the playoff. Those numbers mean only a fraction of what you are suggesting they mean, until the playoff picture gets resolved.

We won't know squat until then.

Unless you can break down those numbers and discern WHO is watching and WHY, then they aren't worth much, most likely folks watch because we usually have the best chance of knocking off OU for the playoff chase. Without the status of the existing B12, those eyes will not be tuning in to see if we can knock off Cincy, or whether Baylor wins the conference for the next 10 years.

Umm....no, not exactly. They also have shown OSU numbrers net of UT/OU, and they looked good. We averaged ovrer a million viewers without our prime two opponents. The speaks very well for OSU, and as you said that's about as forward looking as you can be right now. I agree nobody knows what kind of numbers a BYU/OSU or BYUCincy etc game would generate. What we do know about the PAC teams: ASU is ranked 49th in viewers even with USC/UCLA games. AU full schedule is ranked down in the 70's, almost exactly the same as the University of Tulsa. So going in both of those PAC schools are well below OSU and won't do much for us. Having a market isn't work much if nobody in the market watches your games.
all of that nonsense has already been dispelled. Viewership depends on TV contracts and time slots, more so than anything else. The PAC had both, lousy TV network and bad timeslots.

all of those past numbers that folks seem so eager to use a fact, are simply a gage. The OSU numbers cannot be separated from the OU/Texas numbers, because we are in the same contracts and competing for the same viewer timeslots.

guys this stuff is just not that hard to comprehend.
GumbyFromPokeyLand
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Here's my perfect scenario.

Add Oregon, Washington, Utah and Colorado. Stop at 16, which will match the future SEC and B1G in terms of teams. No reason to add the AZ schools. They don't add value, or competitive quality. Further, I think that collection of 16 teams will not be left out of any future version of a CFP, will very likely annually have 2 or more teams in the top12 to 15 and will be the 3rd best conference in terms of value and quality.
GumbyFromPokeyLand
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Pistolp said:

CaliforniaCowboy said:

oh gawd.. not the "look at the TV numbers" argument again.... sigh.

those B12 TV numbers are with OU and UT in the league, which raises up everybody's numbers, because of the playoff. Those numbers mean only a fraction of what you are suggesting they mean, until the playoff picture gets resolved.

We won't know squat until then.

Unless you can break down those numbers and discern WHO is watching and WHY, then they aren't worth much, most likely folks watch because we usually have the best chance of knocking off OU for the playoff chase. Without the status of the existing B12, those eyes will not be tuning in to see if we can knock off Cincy, or whether Baylor wins the conference for the next 10 years.

Umm....no, not exactly. They also have shown OSU numbrers net of UT/OU, and they looked good. We averaged ovrer a million viewers without our prime two opponents. The speaks very well for OSU, and as you said that's about as forward looking as you can be right now. I agree nobody knows what kind of numbers a BYU/OSU or BYUCincy etc game would generate. What we do know about the PAC teams: ASU is ranked 49th in viewers even with USC/UCLA games. AU full schedule is ranked down in the 70's, almost exactly the same as the University of Tulsa. So going in both of those PAC schools are well below OSU and won't do much for us. Having a market isn't work much if nobody in the market watches your games.


Absolutely correct according to every national, regional and local opinion I've read.

Except one, of course. LOL.
Robert Allen
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Tuition staying flat for this next school year. I know that was a priority for Dr. Shrum. She aggressively sought out other revenue streams in order to keep tuition from being raised.
Robert Allen
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It would help if more students would buy their football and all-sports tickets. That is huge for atmosphere and I still like to think of this as a college game for the college and by the college even if that is more pipedream and not as rational as in the past.
NJAggie
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Glad to hear that, and I too wish they bought tickets and came to the games.
CaliforniaCowboy
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Pistolp said:

CaliforniaCowboy said:

oh gawd.. not the "look at the TV numbers" argument again.... sigh.

those B12 TV numbers are with OU and UT in the league, which raises up everybody's numbers, because of the playoff. Those numbers mean only a fraction of what you are suggesting they mean, until the playoff picture gets resolved.

We won't know squat until then.

Unless you can break down those numbers and discern WHO is watching and WHY, then they aren't worth much, most likely folks watch because we usually have the best chance of knocking off OU for the playoff chase. Without the status of the existing B12, those eyes will not be tuning in to see if we can knock off Cincy, or whether Baylor wins the conference for the next 10 years.

Umm....no, not exactly. They also have shown OSU numbrers net of UT/OU, and they looked good. We averaged ovrer a million viewers without our prime two opponents. The speaks very well for OSU, and as you said that's about as forward looking as you can be right now. I agree nobody knows what kind of numbers a BYU/OSU or BYUCincy etc game would generate. What we do know about the PAC teams: ASU is ranked 49th in viewers even with USC/UCLA games. AU full schedule is ranked down in the 70's, almost exactly the same as the University of Tulsa. So going in both of those PAC schools are well below OSU and won't do much for us. Having a market isn't work much if nobody in the market watches your games.
I already explained it to you, I already explained the star-system and team rankings to you, I'm not going to spend any more time trying to explain simple math.

Believe whatever you would like, just stop whining about it.
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