NIL Already Having Impact on Recruiting?

Pay for play, which is what this garbage Texas, Miami and BYU are getting away with. This has to be addressed or we are back to the Wild West days of the mid 1980's in recruiting.

The Pancake Society purports to be a charity. Thus, if you contribute to the society, you get a charitable deduction. So now players get paid above the table with a tax friendly charitable contribution instead of under the table as a fictitious expense that could only be deducted if you were willing to commit tax fraud.
All the UT Athletics department has to do is to request donors to direct a portion of their giving to certain "charitable" organizations. And what is to stop UT Athletics from donating directly to a "charitable" organization?

THIS CRAP MUST HAVE SOME SIDEBOARDS ON IT OR IT WILL DESTROY COLLEGE ATHLETICS. THERE WILL BE A TOP 25 OF UNIVERSITIES WITH THE WEALTHIEST BACKERS AND THE REST....INCLUDING OSU IN THAT "REST"....THIS WILL NOT EVEN BE SEMI-PRO BUT JUST PRO SPORTS ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES. THE NCAA IS INEPT. DID BOWLSBY GET A JOB THERE?

We gonna blame us not getting big time lineman on nil now? Shooott been not getting since the day

what does being a charity have to do with it? (honest question)

Isn't it supposed to be about Name, Image, Likeness .... e.g. use your "celebrity status" to help market or promote a product or service? Our Danny G. provides a product (an article) for his dough, but if his celerity status were right, Pokes Report could offer him bling just to attract traffic to this site.... which is all good and we all seem to understand whether we agree with it or not.

But a blanket payout just for being on scholarship, and providing nothing? (or it seems to me).

any idea how this pancake thing meets even the intent of the rule? Seems like it should be individual contracts for each person.... minimum, or some such (if it's not, I have no idea of the details)

It's an IRS registered charitable organization that performs/provides charitable work. Presumably each of their NIL signees are obligated to perform certain charitable acts.

The NCAA has no rules on NIL, and is not going to. They are getting out of that business. The government created this mess, and they are going to be the ones regulating it. So you can expect it to be a s**t show.

I get it, kids that have performed should be able to profit from their celebrity, but there's no good way to regulate it, so its just going to be a free for all.

I wouldn't get too excited about the UT situation they've always been able to steal kids when they failed to recruit all year, so nothing new there. And, they'll still take them in and set them back in their development.

While it's disappointing and disheartening it has come to this, the number of scholarship worthy athletes has not changed. As long as the NCAA doesn't expand scholarship limits, IMO NIL won't have as an overwhelming impact as you might initially think. Sure, UT (and other $$$$$programs) might get 20 4&5 stars instead of 15, but that will just mean programs like OSU will lose 1or 2 4- stars and replace them with 3-stars. I think.

How long will scholarship limits have any meaning? BYU is already paying the scholarships for their walkons. How long before UT or other schools see that as the next step and expand their scholarships. Walkon programs could be bigger than the scholarship roster.

We're probably already on our way back to the 50's & 60's where the UT's & OU's of the world just sign everyone so no one else has any talent to compete with them.

The only thing saving us is kids desire to play and the transfer portal.

NJAggie said:

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How long will scholarship limits have any meaning? BYU is already paying the scholarships for their walkons. How long before UT or other schools see that as the next step and expand their scholarships. Walkon programs could be bigger than the scholarship roster.

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Very true.

Non-LDS tuition at BYU is $6,000, so it's cheaper than in-state at OSU. Having the church subsidize tuition so heavily to start with makes the deal at BYU much more feasible than it would be elsewhere. Out of state tuition at UT is $40,000. Even with a lot of money going into the program, that gets to be a pretty heavy lift.

Danny Deck said:

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Non-LDS tuition at BYU is $6,000, so it's cheaper than in-state at OSU. Having the church subsidize tuition so heavily to start with makes the deal at BYU much more feasible than it would be elsewhere. Out of state tuition at UT is $40,000. Even with a lot of money going into the program, that gets to be a pretty heavy lift.

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Good call

It has been so obvious that this would go sideways and lack the oversight required to prevent the big money programs to take advantage of this. Imagine is T. Boone was still alive he could take care of this for OSU in 2 minutes. We need big alumni donors who sign up our athletes.

11. What is prohibited under the new policy?

Subject to state law, the following is prohibited under the new interim policy:
- NIL agreement without quid pro quo (e.g., compensation for work not performed). Student-athlete NIL
agreements should include the expected NIL deliverables by a student-athlete in exchange for the agreed
upon compensation and student-athletes must be compensated only for work actually performed.
- NIL compensation contingent upon enrollment at a particular school. For example, institutions should not
use NIL arrangements to improperly induce matriculation (e.g., guaranteeing a particular NIL opportunity
upon enrollment);
- Compensation for athletic participation or achievement. Athletic performance may enhance a student-athlete's NIL value, but athletic performance may not be the "consideration" for NIL compensation.
- Institutions providing compensation in exchange for the use of a student-athlete's name, image or likeness.

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/NIL/NIL_QandA.pdf

CaliforniaCowboy said:

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11. What is prohibited under the new policy?

Subject to state law, the following is prohibited under the new interim policy:
- NIL agreement without quid pro quo (e.g., compensation for work not performed). Student-athlete NIL
agreements should include the expected NIL deliverables by a student-athlete in exchange for the agreed
upon compensation and student-athletes must be compensated only for work actually performed.
- NIL compensation contingent upon enrollment at a particular school. For example, institutions should not
use NIL arrangements to improperly induce matriculation (e.g., guaranteeing a particular NIL opportunity
upon enrollment);
- Compensation for athletic participation or achievement. Athletic performance may enhance a student-athlete's NIL value, but athletic performance may not be the "consideration" for NIL compensation.
- Institutions providing compensation in exchange for the use of a student-athlete's name, image or likeness.

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/NIL/NIL_QandA.pdf

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Key terms or phrases:

- subject to state law
- "institutions" shall not…..

Doesn't appear anything in the " pancake society" NIL deal would violate the NCAA prohibitions.

no.. you are only reading into it what you want it to say.... you're pointing to the paraphrased explanation (should) and skipping the actual statement PROHIBITED.

what I posted is from a Q&A, and not from the NCAA announcement

I don't know if it is a violation or not, can you post that NIL agreement for us?

CaliforniaCowboy said:

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no.. you are only reading into it what you want it to say.... you're pointing to the paraphrased explanation (should) and skipping the actual statement PROHIBITED.

what I posted is from a Q&A, and not from the NCAA announcement

I don't know if it is a violation or not, can you post that NIL agreement for us?

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I'm confused. I'm not skipping prohibited since everything listed is prohibited. And if you think the Q&A is not the rule, and that the NCAA announcement is more relevant, why post the Q&A? I still don't see what has been reported about the pancake society would make it a prohibited endeavor. The Q&A partially focuses on activities by "institutions". The pancake society is not UT and therefore not a member "institution".

As Gundy said at the NLI signing presser, effectively, there are no rules.

Yep, there are no rules. The NCAA has chosen not to become involved likely because they knew almost anything they did would be challenged and over turned in court. The courts have basically said that student athletes are no different than any employee, and have basically made it where there is no way to enforce competitive rules between the schools that affect what students can receive as benefits and where they can attend school.

Even the ruling last summer that said the NCAA couldn't limit educational benefits. That pretty much makes the scholarship limits moot. Right now if OSU baseball wanted to define the benefits they offer each partial scholarship to a point where they are equal to or only slightly less than a full scholarship they can.

So why not redefine what the scholarship limit translates into how many kids you can pay with those scholarships.

I really can't see an end to this outside of some schools selling their brand names to the people that are going to operate the new Pro-College Football league, and the rest will have to retreat to a DIII level.

apparently there are rules, and I listed some of the prohibited activities (which the pancake club seems to be in violation of, but I have not seen their contract)

What Gundy says is not relevant and OSU has a complete policy on the issue.


College student-athletes competing in states without an NIL law will have the freedom to receive compensation for their NIL however they see fit, as long as they do not violate pay-for-play or receive financial incentives to sign with or remain at a program.

this is interesting.
https://www.ncsasports.org/name-image-likeness#what-states

CaliforniaCowboy said:

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apparently there are rules, and I listed some of the prohibited activities (which the pancake club seems to be in violation of, but I have not seen their contract)

What Gundy says is not relevant and OSU has a complete policy on the issue.


College student-athletes competing in states without an NIL law will have the freedom to receive compensation for their NIL however they see fit, as long as they do not violate pay-for-play or receive financial incentives to sign with or remain at a program.

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Why does it seem the pancake society in violation of NCAA NIL rules?

GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

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Why does it seem the pancake society in violation of NCAA NIL rules?

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I said I do not know what their contract says, and I asked you to provide it since you seem to be the most informed.... yet you have not provided it and continue to badger me, when I clearly said that I have not seen the agreement, and the guidance suggests that the NIL contract be for specific activities (beyond just being part of the team or the OLIne - like appearances, fund raising, etc)

I was able to find this...


Horns with Heart will "offer a chance to join the program to every eligible scholarship offensive lineman at Texas starting Aug. 1, 2022." Any players who sign deals "will be obligated to make charitable appearances and 'bring awareness to worthy causes that impact their local communities'

https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2021/12/07/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Texas-NIL.aspx


but this sounds even more audacious.....

Clark Field Collective
The goal is "simple: to have the largest fund in the country dedicated to NIL activities for Texas athletes." Shuley "envisions having committees for each UT athletic team."
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2021/12/02/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Texas-NIL.aspx

CaliforniaCowboy said:

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GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

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Why does it seem the pancake society in violation of NCAA NIL rules?

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I said I do not know what their contract says, and I asked you to provide it since you seem to be the most informed.... yet you have not provided it and continue to badger me, when I clearly said that I have not seen the agreement, and the guidance suggests that the NIL contract be for specific activities (beyond just being part of the team or the OLIne - like appearances, fund raising, etc)

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Yes, the info you're providing about horns with heart is the same info I've read. Nothing new, but it is the basis for my understanding how it works.

Now, you said:

"….I listed some of the prohibited activities (which the pancake club seems to be in violation of…"

Simple question. What prohibited activities does it "seem" the pancake society is violating?

If you're not prepared to explain how or why you think they are in violation, why the heck did you make that comment.

I believe I said it does not APPEAR the pancake society is violating any rules, but clearly I don't have a copy of the pancake society agreement with its beneficiaries. But you knew that but had to ask in an effort to deflect.

GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

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Yes, the info you're providing about horns with heart is the same info I've read. Nothing new, but it is the basis for my understanding how it works.

Now, you said:

"….I listed some of the prohibited activities (which the pancake club seems to be in violation of…"

Simple question. What prohibited activities does it "seem" the pancake society is violating?

If you're not prepared to explain how or why you think they are in violation, why the heck did you make that comment.

I believe I said it does not APPEAR the pancake society is violating any rules, but clearly I don't have a copy of the pancake society agreement with its beneficiaries. But you knew that but had to ask in an effort to deflect.

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Dude, what in the heck is the matter with you? All you want to do is go around starting fights with people, you do the same thing on the other boards.

1) YOU DID NOT PROVIDE TANGIBLE INFORMATION IN YOUR POST, I HAD TO GO LOOK IT UP.
2) I SAID IT SEEMS - because YOU DID NOT PROVIDE ANY OF THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO MAKE A DETERMINATION
3) I LOOKED IT UP, NOW IT DOES NOT SEEM SO MUCH OF A VIOLATION, because I POSTED that they're supposed to do something for their work, as required by the the rules, and they have to apply individually - THAT IS THE INFORMATION THAT WAS MISSING. (however, enforcement seems a bit dubious)

I LOOKED IT UP, because you would not. I DID IT.

get out of my face. Go pick fights with somebody else.

GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

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CaliforniaCowboy said:

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apparently there are rules, and I listed some of the prohibited activities (which the pancake club seems to be in violation of, but I have not seen their contract)

What Gundy says is not relevant and OSU has a complete policy on the issue.


College student-athletes competing in states without an NIL law will have the freedom to receive compensation for their NIL however they see fit, as long as they do not violate pay-for-play or receive financial incentives to sign with or remain at a program.

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Why does it seem the pancake society in violation of NCAA NIL rules?

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How hard would it have been just to reply…..

Now that I look at it, it doesn't seem they would be in violation.

SMH

GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

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How hard would it have been just to reply…..

Now that I look at it, it doesn't seem they would be in violation.

SMH

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after I posted the rules that they appear to be in violation of, how hard would it have been just to post the details of their arrangement and just to reply...

here are the details, and it looks like they have made provisions for those restrictions?

SMH

CaliforniaCowboy said:

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GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

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How hard would it have been just to reply…..

Now that I look at it, it doesn't seem they would be in violation.

SMH

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after I posted the rules that they appear to be in violation of, how hard would it have been just to post the details of their arrangement and just to reply...

here are the details, and it looks like they have made provisions for those restrictions?

SMH

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Not my job to educate you. I try to educate myself before commenting. And It's on me if I give an uneducated opinion.

the posted information was void of any detail, and then you tried to tie that with some nonsense about charity or some such, then complained about not your job to provide details about what ever it was you were trying to make a point about.

I guess the point was OSU can't create charities and keep up?/ or... Bama look out, the rule skirting Horns are coming to the SEC... or who freaking knows.

what was written, as it was posted, seemed like it could be a violation. .

oh who am I kidding.... have a nice day

CaliforniaCowboy said:

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the posted information was void of any detail, and then you tried to tie that with some nonsense about charity or some such, then complained about not your job to provide details about what ever it was you were trying to make a point about.

I guess the point was OSU can't create charities and keep up?/ or... Bama look out, the rule skirting Horns are coming to the SEC... or who freaking knows.

what was written, as it was posted, seemed like it could be a violation. .

oh who am I kidding.... have a nice day

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Just yourself

GumbyFromPokeyLand said:

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CaliforniaCowboy said:

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oh who am I kidding.... have a nice day

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Just yourself

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yes.... obviously (to most) the question was facetious.

you just can't stand to not constantly poke at others, can you? Just like this post trying to pick another fight.

may you have a blessed holiday.

Knock it off GFPL. This was a discussion on points-of-view until you turned the discussion to trying to discredit every point of a fellow alum.

I, for one, very clearly understand Cali's point about "the Pancake Society" being a violation of the intent of NIL. I feel the same way - it's clearly pay-for-play. Rules stated or rules implied, this "charitable organization" is outside the intent and harkens back to the ways of the 1950's. Funny that the same "schools" jumping in today to exploit the weaknesses in how NIL was framed are the same ones that compelled drafting the recruiting rules back then...

Seriously?

Cali now clearly states and clearly understands the pancake society is likely NOT a violation - and you want to chastise me for asking questions about a statement he ultimately retracted? I certainly won't apologize for reaching the same conclusion much quicker than he did.

I will apologize for a non-offensive but perhaps a snarky follow-up comment or two.

It never ceases to amaze how some are offended when you attempt to drill down on the basis of an opinion.

actually, I still believe that it is a violation, and say only that they attempted to put in enough conditions in an attempt to evade scrutiny.

in it's current condition, it seems like worse than Big Red Sports and Imports. (pay for nothing)


This arrangement is nothing more than paying kids to go to and stay at Texas, and avoid the Portal. (which are still illegal conditions)

maybe I'll go look up the charter of the Charity, but it is clearly pay-for-play and had almost zero to do with NIL, which would suggest that some kids would get bigger contracts than others, and some would likely not get offers.

This kind of stuff needs to be shut down.

take a look at their website... SMH... it offers nothing.

it essentially says the goal is to raise enough money to pay the players, and if there is any extra then we'll use that for whatever charitable cause the player(s) may like or support..... to be named later.

it flat out says one of the goals is to make player payments self-sustaining.... SMH

https://hornswithheart.org/